Where are the players?

  • Besides BR guild and VAN, I see close to no one playing the game. Not even NWO or RUS.
    Maybe would help if all the people that have the game via website could transfer to steam, so my friends can get a little more interest in what I am playing.

  • Until the game is free to play, you aren't going to see a big playerbase. Theres no advertisement, and most people wouldn't want to pay 20 dollars to play this. Theres very little ease of access to the game, which leads to no players.

    The ones who do stay are afraid to progress, or just play the game casually. While we (VAN) still pk noobs and everybody we see, we slowed down and don't do it as often.

    Maybe we players could organize some pvp events. Crafted gear 2v2? 1v1? 3v3? tournaments. I think it would be very fun for us to have some pvp besides just run and gank. I'm pretty sure VAN is willing to participate if you guys want to set up actual pvp events.


    I believe that the van should not have killed all new players when the game came out in steam , you guys disturbs new players do not give the chance to a minimum for them to meet and catch love for the game , the Brazilians are continuation in the game because as the old players protected and helping newcomers BRs , VAN not broken any rule when he killed the novice. But you yourself will end the game .

    I'm really sad to see so few people in a great game like linkrealms .

    I hope to see the game full of players yet.

  • @Sativao If people quit from being pk'd. they weren't going to stay anyway. Simple as that

  • so this is why I prefer to play on safe world for all or at least until I wont be very good or not cared playing on pvp serwer :P

  • Edit: this is a lot longer than I thought, and I feel like a nerd for writing it. I'd just like to quickly brag about my 130 WPM typing speed.

    There's no such thing as an open PVP game, especially one that includes the looting of player corpses that isn't incredibly predatory towards new players. It's usually a feature. Even with that being the case, games which are much more punishing on death, and much less lenient on new players like Tibia/RS: DMM/H&H/Salem/Hurt World/Rust/LiF/Wurm/Etc are pretty darn popular.

    I realize there is a subset of players who to some degree enjoy PVP, but typically want to avoid it - but it's been my experience this group is very small by comparison to pure PVERs, and pure PVPers. The PVE server is even more desolate than the PVP server, and based on this I feel one could reasonably assume the reason the retention rates are so low is not because of non-aggressive players being murdered.

    Rough average concurrent daily players
    Start of the last beta(I'm told): 30-60
    End of the last beta: 15-25
    Just prior to the steam release: 3-8 daily
    First few days of steam release: 120
    two weeks after steam release: 30-60
    two months after steam release: 15-30

    It's a very basic/verging on anecdotal way to look at it, but if we're comparing day one to two months, it seems like steam has had a 18.33% retention rate, which is actually very high for any kind of PVP MMO. I doubt it's that high because it's skew by returning players and such, but it's also skewed by the fact we're going by concurrent on a daily basis. 90% of active players won't login daily.

    Don't take this as me defending myself/VAN from claims we 'killed the game', as much as I don't want Linkrealms to die, I'd personally take the notion that I 'killed' a game by killing everybody who plays it as a compliment. It's simply not true, though. I'm confident there are a lot mechanical changes that could be made to increase player retention, but most of them would make the game less niche and fun.

    This is just opinion, but I would argue the main reasons for the low player count are:

    Problem 1) Low boss drop rates, and poor direction in terms of where to find gear:
    The only dungeons worth doing right now are hades, and Tartaros. Blackwood if you’re a mage, but once living staff is obtainable not even that. From these two dungeons you want a combined total of 3 items, a runic helmet, a 300 enlightenment potion, and a 140+ strength potion. Regardless of your class, regardless of your build, from a purely PVP perspective this is always true.

    Hades is the most efficient place to get a runic helm, and can be cleared in about 8-11 min actively farming, or about 25min afking for a near, but not quite perfectly built pve character. Probably slightly less with the slayer weapon changes. The Hades dungeon has a 3% chance to drop something from the universal table, and the runic helm has a 2.78% drop chance with 16 variants. 4 of those variants are completely worthless, and only 5 are very good.

    So on average to get a runic helm, which may or may not be good for your build, it takes
    0.030.0278=0.000834% drop rate
    = 5/16
    = 5 ÷ 16
    = 0.3125
    0.3125 x 100 = 31.25% chance that runic helm will be good(in general, not just for your build)
    0.3125 = 0.000260625% good runic helm drop rate
    1/0.000260625 = 3836.93 hades kills for the only item a PVPer would want
    3836.93*11min = 42206.2 minutes = 703.43 hours = 29.3 days.
    Let's be super conservative, and assume you're NEVER killed doing this, you never lose even time fighting somebody, you never have to bank or resupply you still need to add 10 minutes to every run for dungeon collapse. That's still 55.94 DAYS OF YOUR LIFE TO GET A SINGLE SHITTING ITEM.

    Getting best in slot jewelry, even with the bugs that allow us to lockpick 5 mod jewls x6 the intended rate, is much less likely, and much more time consuming. Keeping this in mind, the highest boss kills on a character I've seen is like 120, and they're probably predominately group kills.. and there are players about who've had 10+ runics in their bank at a time. They used to be bought/sold among UFO members for 50k argents, which admittedly is worth a lot more than 50k argents now because of inflation, but still. Fucking nothing compared to 2 months of your life.

    Honestly, runic helmet by comparison to the next contender is a pretty big deal, the resists allow you two, with certain builds change the fire resist piece of jewelry and still be at cap, leaving you with one free modifier on your jewls. Actually a huge power spike.

    However, this is quite honestly not even slightly a problem until you're at the high-high end. The main problem here is poor direction, because there are only like 4 artifacts with a huge power spike attached to them, and everything else is very minor. Most players could farm 3 of those 4 within a week or two. Some on their character's first day. There isn't enough direction for newer players, in terms of gearing especially those who care about power gaming/mechanics over theme/exploration.

    Problem 2) everybody is bad at this game
    Like really bad. I'm convinced there's not a player in this game I couldn't beat, but I'd consider myself bad too. The reason everybody is bad, is because the frequency with which people are able to fight each other due to the many constrains is far too low. PVP cannot be profitable in Linkrealms, and for fun PVP does not exist. I've seen this in so many other games, example Haven and Hearth(W3-7) no way to safely duel, and was perma death in a game with infinite leveling. There were like eight players in that entire game who were dedicated enough to actually fight and get better, while occasionally dying on months/years old characters to get good. It's the same here, even if a lot less hardcore.

    I'm yet to see a single player who even runs at the right time, nobody knows how much damage their enemies should be doing, nobody knows ranges, nobody switches gear out fight to fight. There are like 5 strategies VAN members have come up with, absolutely unbeatable 1v1 builds and we simply cannot use them because we don't want them to be used against us. In any real competitive game people would've found, tested, and countered these builds on day 1.

    For people to like Linkrealms for its PVP, they have to be good at its PVP. For them to be good at its PVP they need to be able to more commonly engage in its PVP, without being set back hours on every death due to RBS loss, or simply not learn anything because fighting crafted gear vs. creafted gear is nothing like artifacts vs. artifacts. @Prometheus tournaments, please!

    Problem 3) scouts are fucking dumb
    VAN uses them, INC uses them, BR uses them, NWO uses them, random individual players use them. People would be angry if you stopped them from using them, because they paid money(or argents) in order to get them for the sole purpose of scouting. I realize there is no way to absolutely stop people, no matter what you introduce there will always be a way around it. Either way, it's an obviously unfair/unpleasant mechanic that nobody likes. I'd quit most games if something similar were common, so it's safe to assume the more common less nerdy people would too.

    I see two potential ways to lessen scouting.

    1. add a toll to dungeon entry, or a required risk for entry in conjunction with a mechanic that frequently uncovers stealth (like fire in hades, random storm damage in blackwoods, etc) or a mini-game/captcha code that cannot be completed automatically without breaking your custom client rules.

    2. Simply ban it. If you ban it I will absolutely change the PC-name/IP of all of my clients, and try to get around it that way, so it needs to be a pretty zero tolerance/encompassing/moderated/poopy rule. The moment it becomes a zero tolerance/encompassing/moderated/poopy rule, I'll be joining another guild and framing them for using scouts.

    I'd recommend 1)

    Problem 4) a lack of content
    It might be the case that newer players get to do a lot of exploring, but if somebody for instance, joins a high end guild they will have seen everything the game has to offer/maxed their character/gotten all of the reasonable important artifacts within 1-2 weeks. Obviously they won't have a runic helm in that time, but they will have seen every dungeon, event, monster and item in the game.

    Mythyn Interactive is obviously very small, and can't currently afford to just add a cbillion new dungeons/bullshits to do, so I'd suggest just giving people a weeks/bi-weekly thing to do. Tournaments is one answer, but I'd prefer that in conjunction with another PVPVE event. Just something people can look forward to doing better and better in, on an occasional basis. The only requirements for such in event, or participation / enjoyment at least would be

    1. rewards that are good, but not so good as to make the event be a requirement
    2. PVP that cannot be dominated by a single guild/player, or at least not to the point they're the only one rewarded
    3. Happen so occasionally as to be something to look forward to, something guilds will recruit for/players will log in specifically for, but not so infrequently as to be irrelevant

    Lots of people come back for these kinds of events in games, make a friend during and then have social content to come back for. Every researchy bullshit mind control study I've ever read about MMOs has claimed this is the most effective way to increase player retention, other than the routine crap from facebook/mobile games.

    Problem 5) No reward from PVP
    While I realize the 'real' end game is grinding endlessly for better gear, in my experience a majority of the people who play this game at the high end do so purely for PVP. The is absolutely no reward from PVP, and I'd suggest this is another reason retention is low.

    With the current drop rates for artifacts, or honestly, with any reasonably small change to the gearing system items dropping would be worse for the game then good. It would make 95% of all currently useful content worthless, and I would argue would absolutely ruin the game. The people who suggest this haven't at all thought of the implications.

    For there to be a reward for end game PVP, in my mind, the only options are:

    1. Increase the value of consumables greatly
    2. My previously mentioned insurance / bountry
    3. PVP scoreboards / mini games that give dick waving privileges
    4. My previously mentioned required risk / toll for entry into dungeons / certain zones

    Problem 6) There's a massive advantage in owning certain land, and no counterplay
    I'm personally of the opinion the realms in the volcanic/hades/lizgoth zones should not be allowed to be owned by players, unless for a short period if done through a PVP event or something. perhaps that could be the aforementioned weekly/bi-weekly tournament, a PVP game of resource gathering/PKing score/whatever to get a realm lease there.

    The Volcanic zone is just where owning the right realms is the most obvious of an advantage, but personally I'd prefer all realms be contestable, even if it's very expensive/time consuming to do so. A guild with a good teleportation network so they can quickly aid friends/gank enemies is at MASSIVE advantage over others, and once the land is owned there is absolutely no reasonable counterplay or way to take it from them.

    Problem 7) Inflation
    As stands with the right farming methods most player's characters are capable of farming 120k+ per hour, and that's a conservative estimate. While there are limited farming areas in the game, they're not very contested, and require little/no risk to be farmed. Absolutely nothing is traded for argents, and that's because the only noteworthy thing an argent buys is claimstakes/the shittest heals for PVE.

    Argents having a higher value would greatly help newer players, since it could be made so purely the lower level training areas are effective in terms of pure argent farming, leaving them with a lot of relative power in the economy. Obviously higher level / more contested areas will drop items of higher value, but everything's argent price within the economy would be from the bottom up, rather than the top down. If argent spots somehow become more valuable in terms of value:time than the higher level spots, the economy will simply even itself back out by way of argent oversaturation by comparison to item saturation from the higher level spots.

    The above would obvious need to be in conjunction with more argent dumps, for example

    1. The above insurance system item
    2. Higher realm maintenance costs
    3. MUCH higher price for Lizgoth maps
    4. Pstone vendor charging argents in conjunction with Pstones, or charging argents for you to pick/increase chances for a certain item

    P.S: I realize that the playerbase would go up to a reasonable level if Linkrealms just went free to play, or with any reasonable amount of expensive expensive advertising, but I suspect Prom/Urial want to polish their product as much as possible before they really show it off to the world.

  • @Holya said in Where are the players?:

    Problem 5) No reward from PVP
    While I realize the 'real' end game is grinding endlessly for better gear, in my experience a majority of the people who play this game at the high end do so purely for PVP. The is absolutely no reward from PVP, and I'd suggest this is another reason retention is low.

    Since the patch with protection + grey/red shit I was just getting bored more and more and more until I stopped logging in at all... It is already a week or more without even logging in for a minute, because if I only think about just grinding gear or grinding lizard maps which are not even working the way they should work I am losing any will to even type in my password :| I didn't stay on PvP server for something like that...

  • @Vetro Marra/X/Half of INC have all said the same, and it's really not true. Under the current system I've never lost extra bless charges for being red, and I know you/Kap have like 20 of those things each jewed away in your bank.

    I don't think the red patch can be directly blamed, more of a straw that broke the camel's back kinda deal. Also gimma the blood pen, you slut

  • @Holya It is not about losing charges (anyway for now we are not losing anything - if only this game could have players who can oppose us, we wouldn't be able to keep up with blessing our gear). It is just about forcing pvp server to become more pve than pvp instead of just fixing more important things like drops/artis/liz maps etc (not even saying about this annoying shit kernel crash bug, which I asked to fix like 7 months ago and many times after that also, but oh well).


    I dont really care to reply to most of your points because they already stated they are working on fixing half of your complaints.

    I will say there were 3 primary reasons the steam release population evaporated.

    1. Try hard noob killers.
    2. Anti virus problems making game almost unplayable.
    3. Nvidia kernel error.
    4. Oh and sorcery was so terrible

    1 has been fixed by the new player protection system and said try hard noob killers running the new player base away so there are no new players to kill.
    2 has been fixed.
    3 has not.

    1. Sorcery is much improved. Still not all the way there yet. New spells seem very promising I'd like to see this focused on.

    In regards to the pk system its much better than it was previously but honestly its almost trivial now.. an extreme annoyance.. which is why they should have just removed the blessing penalty and went with something else instead of hanging onto their penalty for dear life just because they thought of it. Now you just have to sit there and wait for some to attack you/go grey/or do nothing and if you are a red wait for someone to attack you/go grey or not care and attack the person and deal with the consequences.

    Problem 3) scouts are fucking dumb

    I agree. Implement a dungeon system like dread horn in uo.

    Problem 6) There's a massive advantage in owning certain land, and no counterplay

    Completely against this. People spend their money to get the spot they want. Any system where you lose that due to circumstances out of your control is a terrible idea. This issue will be solved when the pvp lands are extended.

  • IKR im the last of NIU and the last of NWO guilds :D but im still playing with all the spirit!

  • Well, I have like 10 friends that quit the game just because blessing system alone.
    Holya isnt wrong about killing people in a pvp game. Its meant to be that way... and I always said that the game would be dead if wasnt for him, because there would be close to no action going on.
    That said, i think the drop chance/few loot possibilities together with bless system = the reason why the low numbers right now.
    If it was easy to get good gear, and average difficulty to get high gear, people wouldnt mind about walking with artifacts with no blessing on them - and that would give the reward Holya mentioned for full pvpers.
    If you dont want to risk artifacts and still do some controlled pvp (only inside dungeons), you will always have the pve server - and its not hard to start a new char.

    Another thing devs should really consider about is or changing lockpick to be skill points free (in the crafting skill tabble like was already suggested) or reduce it importance - increasing significantly the random mobs drop. Right now, its just impossible for a mage (that always have lack in skills points) to grab it, leaving lockpick mainly for archers/meeles that have 80 points to spare.

    In my humble oppinion:
    1 - Increase overall drop rate by a LOT
    2 - Remove Bless
    3 - Put Lockpick as worker skill
    4 - Improve crafting (its already at roadmap)
    5 - Get better artifacts (already at roadmap as well)
    6 - Get "pickpocket" rogue skill so we can see more rogues and less people afk at city.
    7 - Get Animal Taming/pet control skill working good.
    8 - Get the spells of illusionism and abjuration and distribute them into invocation/alteration/conjuration - you dont need 5 schools of magic and would still be a good sorcery system.
    9 - Meeles/archers/mages (already in roadmap), need more crowdcontrol to stop the running/map changing festival in overall pvp
    10 - Bigger maps/more content/make some way to restrict spies.
    This few changes would improve the game buy tons.


    Disagree on bless , you pick up a good item to show up a guy like Holya takes you into a trap, ready those 20 stones that you was taking all day it was lost

  • @Sativao said in Where are the players?:

    Disagree on bless , you pick up a good item to show up a guy like Holya takes you into a trap, ready those 20 stones that you was taking all day it was lost

    Thats why "1 - Increase overall drop rate by a LOT"
    This way you wont be too attached to your stuff anymore.

  • @DEAD I don't believe your idea would yield positive results. It'd probably be more fun in the short term, but it greatly exacerbates the minimal amount of content in the long term. As stands somebody can in 1-2 weeks become powerful enough to fight anybody from scratch(AKA essentially run out of content), and it would only be a lot faster with your suggested changes.

    right one can do
    Solo Lv100 spider chest: 5 min(assuming you've access to a lockpicker x:)
    Solo Hades: 8 min
    Solo Darkling Camp: Maybe 10 min
    Solo Blackwood: maybe 35-40 min
    Solo Gnome Dungeon: maybe 35-40 min
    2 man Tart: ~45 min
    Solo Farm: 8 Pstone/hour average

    That's effectively getting a chance at every drop table in the game, except Lizgoth, plus universal 3(4?) times in just under 5 hours. The likelihood of you needing items from all of these sources seems low, so you'd be able to cut half of them out anyway.

    For content to remain valid, and not just something populated by the nerdiest of basement dwellers it must

    1. Yield useful rewards
    2. Rewards within a time frame that won't discourage people
    3. Not reward so often as to make itself irrelevant by oversupplying its rewards

    Having items drop on death would either make a majority of the game's content irrelevant by virtue of it not yielding useful rewards, because it's not worth the time sink for PVP's sake. I'd just run around with two extra guys in crafted gear rather than risk my runic helmet as is, and my group would be a lot more powerful were that the case.

    If items were to drop on death, and the drop rates to increased you would have the same problem, unless they were increased to a ludicrous degree in which case the items would be over supplied, and valueless. I imagine it'd play out like Hurt World, or Das Tal, where people only play for a week or so after a server is launched, and then quit until the next wipe. One completes the content far too quickly, and the majority does not stick around to PVP for a little bit then complete the same loop over and over. It's just not what this game is, a majority of the people here want a thematic, nostalgic experience, and diablo style gear grinding, not hardcore dick waving PVP.


    answer is simple, before all of you continue say idiocy here:

    It's SUMMER, for all the world except VAN and Brasilian of course

    enjoy your game, we will enjoy this winter :)

  • Hopefully the item, loot, and mob balance will give players something to stick around for. That'll be soon right?

  • @DEAD @Myhal @Sativao @Vertep @Holya @Vetro @Clavicus @vorgoth333 @Meziljin @Roundwaters

    Hi guys,

    thanks for your feedback, you've brought up several very good points in this discussion. As you know, we are already working on some of those issues - useless artifacts, drop rates of artifacts too low, lack of interesting items in monsters' loot, and other balancing mistakes. They will be all addressed, hopefully for good, in the next 2-3 patches.

    Besides game design, there have been errors with game pricing as well. The idea of including a Settler Founder Pack with each Steam Key was bad - we should have sold Steam Keys that just give game access for a much lower price, as we are doing with our external keys. Because of wrong pricing, running marketing campaigns is not effective now. This is also something we are going to change soon, if Steam allows us to do so.

    In the end, I can say we are very aware of what the issues with this Early Access launch have been - most of it thanks to your suggestions and criticism, of course - and are working towards fixing all of them before going for a second large marketing and press push, which should take place in September!

  • @Prometheus have you decided how long before the advertising push you're going to have all of the major changes in place? If it's a reasonable amount I'd strongly consider writing / recording guides

  • @Prometheus said in Where are the players?:

    ... going for a second large marketing and press push, which should take place in September!

    I wouldn't worry about the advertising push at this point. You guys get one last shot with this game, and that's when it goes free to play. The initial steam release was a wasted opportunity. You exposed new players to the same broken content nobody has wanted to play for the last 6 years. And then you broke it even more.

    If you were actually listening to players, lockpicking would be a work skill already. Every single player knows this is the best thing to do.

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