Mage is incredibly underpowered, and my spaghetti is upsetti over the tournament vol. 13



  • Garbage video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_7DxapUHOs&feature=youtu.be

    @Prometheus said in Number of players are decreasing very quickly:

    @Holya said in Number of players are decreasing very quickly:

    don't overnerf mage ;c and pls don't make Linkrealms too composition based

    We're not going to OVERnerf mage and not going to make Linkrealms TOO composition-based, but a bit of both, we will ;)

    @Prometheus said in Number of players are decreasing very quickly:

    @Holya said in Number of players are decreasing very quickly:

    Promethus hasn't announced the change to murky yet, so it might be minimal/insignificant, or made up for with other buffs. That said, I'm definitely in the camp that assumes mages are going to get over nerfed for the sake of balancing around bad players.

    It's definitely a significant change, but that doesn't mean Murky Ooze is becoming useless. It's more of a change of concept, getting away from the idea of it dealing Pure Damage. Murky Ooze will remain one of the main sources of damage of the "Green Mage"

    timestamp for murky ooze spam damage example: https://youtu.be/e_7DxapUHOs?t=1m42s

    I was going to write a big, long thing, but suffice it to say the are currently four viable builds and some slight variants on each of them. Mage is not one of those builds, and the only reason I'm calling it four, rather than three, is because archer might be better for people with high ping, and may be superior in very large fights.

    This isn't like the last few patches, where one class could be described as 10-20% better than the others, mage is straight garbage, and melee is overpowered as shit. I can definitely see mages supporting warriors to some degree, but in general just having another warrior would be more effective.

    I don't wanna be that guy that threatens to quit on an MMO forum, like anybody cares, but this patch and its interaction with the tournament is heavily alienating the competitive community.



  • I (seriously) appreciate the effort you're putting in giving constructive criticism to the latest balancing patch, @Holya. However, I think you're doing the same mistake you've accused others of: complaining a lot about a balancing point before seeing how it actually plays out in "real" PvP, which, as you know, is very different from two people testing numbers like that.

    Also notice how the guy who is receiving the damage from the mages and sustaining it very easily is... A mage himself! Using healing spells, by the way, the ones that were meant to be "garbage".

    As for the Murky Ooze moment, I guess you've cast a Minotaur Spirit and sacrificed it right before, but have cut that piece of video away - right? We are actually thinking whether all those buffs should be additive or should give a minimum cap, and whether the buff from the Minotaur's death effect should be replaced by a damage-eating shield. That doesn't change the fact the player enjoying such a powerful combination of resistances is a MAGE spiritualist.

    Last but not least, you're still talking as if a mage had the Oozes as his only damage-dealing spell. That is the case for ONE type of mage - and that type of mage is actually missing a couple crucial spells not yet implemented.

    Last but not least, I'd like to repeat again that there will be other patches between the beginning and the end of the tournament if needed, so there's really no reason to be too worried about that.


  • FOUNDER: PRINCE

    @Prometheus said in Mage is incredibly underpowered, and my spaghetti is upsetti over the tournament vol. 13:

    Last but not least, you're still talking as if a mage had the Oozes as his only damage-dealing spell. That is the case for ONE type of mage - and that type of mage is actually missing a couple crucial spells not yet implemented.

    I feel like this pretty much sums it up. I do agree with Holya 100% in high end pvp and by that I mean fighting someone with max resists mage is not viable. Id argue it was the same way pre patch however as ive previously mentioned I have never used murky/green ooze and being better than the person you are fighting you could generally still pull out a win even if you have to reset the fight. The nerf to sdi (which i understand it never should have been 40%) hurt me more than anything. I was casting on myself the other day (without max resist) and thought meh.

    Part of what irks me about mage is the huge amount of spells we will have that we currently dont. I mentioned to prometheus that Id like to see magic vulnerability in game (if it does what you think it would) and even something maybe like mana beans (i will assume this allows you to recover mana)



  • @Prometheus said in Mage is incredibly underpowered, and my spaghetti is upsetti over the tournament vol. 13:

    Last but not least, you're still talking as if a mage had the Oozes as his only damage-dealing spell. That is the case for ONE type of mage - and that type of mage is actually missing a couple crucial spells not yet implemented.

    Implement pls



  • @Holya ill say you what you say to us one day xD You just have not the correct build and gears.

    My spiritualism/invocation Mage were very good before patch i even did fight Clavicus with a half build and he has alot troubles to fight me, I think i did an error to change my spiritualism build for full mage build, So my mage is not viable now for pvp but excelent for pve, solo/party raids.

    I like to try new builds always, so you just need to find your correct build without trying to explode the OP/bug/glitched builds. =) gl hf



  • @Clavicus OFC mage vs all max resist is not viable... think why? Ofc isnt easy to get 70% ice/fire/shock/poison and 70% all resistances duh. even if you are fighting a person with 70% ice/fire/shock, you have the choice to use spiritualism to stun, earthquake to at least low the opponent to half or less because if he has 70% all magic resists his physical resists will be like 40/40/40 or less, Also mages can do melee damage with the weapon to finish Remember its a NO CLASS GAME" so depends on your build and game play if you do more of less damage, tell me which set increase the 7 resistances to 70%?


  • FOUNDER: PRINCE

    @vorgoth333 ive never had a difficult time fighting you #propaganda.

    I wont bother replying to the rest of your post as there is no need.



  • @Clavicus lol ok, i tell you the same.



  • @Prometheus

    I completely agree judging a large change in mechanics in any game purely on paper isn't viable, but that's not exactly what I'm doing. If two people/classes/whatever are 100% evenly matched, and then one gains a random + 20% damage you can almost certainly tell on paper based on prior experience who will win. Prior to 8.3, in an actual fight where both sides were actively trying to kill each other, the only way mage was clearly superior is they could blink out and split people off fairly easily. They shouldn't do more damage, they shouldn't be able to consistently attack, their damage shouldn't be reliable, they have no mobile damage. That said, they could just nope the fuck out and blink away forever, if they wanted.

    The only buff mage got was the mino spirit sacrifice. With the reduction in free skills a mage has, it's very difficult to fit spiritualism, especially with any reasonable amount of psi regeneration. This buff helps exclusively survivability, but even if mage were literally immune to damage they should still never be able to kill somebody right now.

    Last patch versus a fully geared player, a conjuration mage should've been able to do minimum 40-50 DPS when allowed to freecast. Now it does less than 20, its best spell costs double what the old best did, and is the same in every other regard. Yes, murky has some synergy with physical attacks now, but even with crush armor on and murky fully stacked it should be doing less DPS than murky ooze last patch. Due to the quick cast, long duration of mino sacrifice, and general prevalence of spiritualism, I can't see murky ever being effective.

    The video example is indeed of a mage, and using a spell that was indeed garbage last patch simply because blink was its greater in every regard. However, minor heal spam is not enough to tank any other class, yet it can tank two green mages spamming their best ability all the way to oom. Mages that could be almost entirely stopped from casting.

    I'm fully willing to admit there's a potential that I'm just flat out wrong, but I don't see any role for a green mage in PVP, or PVE, or even just 3v1 ganks. It doesn't excel anywhere. It isn't even average anywhere. It could be useful for crystal wall in large fights, or enclosed environments, but other than that, it's useless.

    I got people with low ping to screenshare a melee fight earlier today, and I can confirm somebody with low ping will definitely be able to stick this patch. If a warrior sticks for even a short period of time, considering it has 100% mobile damage, if its using the right combos even a very geared opponent should die within a reasonably short period of time. Moreover, multiple melee characters synergies with each other as much, or more than mages due to their CC chains through disarm and such.

    Lastly, I realize spells are still under implementation, and balancing is still happening. Not to seem crude, but I don't care. For me, Linkrealms is what Linkrealms is, and Linkrealms very heavily favors low ping/warrior builds to the point not much else seems viable. Maybe in 5+v5+ archer's range will come into play, but mage's ability to pre-cast won't. Linkrealms right now is not viable for somebody with high ping, if they care about winning, nor is it viable for somebody who wants to 2v7 bads.



  • @Holya said in Mage is incredibly underpowered, and my spaghetti is upsetti over the tournament vol. 13:

    @Prometheus

    Last patch versus a fully geared player, a conjuration mage should've been able to do minimum 40-50 DPS when allowed to freecast. Now it does less than 20, its best spell costs double what the old best did, and is the same in every other regard. Yes, murky has some synergy with physical attacks now, but even with crush armor on and murky fully stacked it should be doing less DPS than murky ooze last patch. Due to the quick cast, long duration of mino sacrifice, and general prevalence of spiritualism, I can't see murky ever being effective.

    The video example is indeed of a mage, and using a spell that was indeed garbage last patch simply because blink was its greater in every regard. However, minor heal spam is not enough to tank any other class, yet it can tank two green mages spamming their best ability all the way to oom. Mages that could be almost entirely stopped from casting.

    Given the current Minotaur shield, that minor heal spam would be able to tank any other class even better. In fact, with a mage you could switch to other spells dealing one of the magical damages or poison or ethereal. If your enemy had been a warrior, it would have dealt 2-3 damage per attack period without even a chance to debuff you. Or maybe it could have dealt a bit more with procs / Ethereal weapon / summons - still nowhere close to the 40 damage a mage with capped CSI and decent ping can deal with a triple Shock Phase in less than 1 second against a target with capped Shock Resistance.

    I'm fully willing to admit there's a potential that I'm just flat out wrong, but I don't see any role for a green mage in PVP, or PVE, or even just 3v1 ganks. It doesn't excel anywhere. It isn't even average anywhere. It could be useful for crystal wall in large fights, or enclosed environments, but other than that, it's useless.

    Once more, Murky Ooze is not the only spell a mage has, and I still think a Conjurer in a team is excellent to bring down heavily armored players against which a warrior can do little to nothing.

    That being said, in the tournament so far mages don't seem useless at all.



  • @Prometheus

    Given the current Minotaur shield, that minor heal spam would be able to tank any other class even better.

    Even better is a relative term. I'm not sure a mage standing still with 95 armor could tank a melee for very long spamming minor heal, and even if they could, they definitely couldn't tank two. This also requires your build has

    1. 55 spiritualism
    2. a PSI regen/reduction that equals 1.75/seconds, assuming you want to keep it up
    3. At least some investment in PSI/Int
    4. Be incredibly weak to frailty (being a counter to a bad class doesn't make your class better FYI)
    5. Have a reduced damage, or utility from the significant number of skill points you've to dump into conc/spirit

    Additionally, it means they can't be moving, so unless your teammates are in a position to kill somebody whaling on you in a relatively short time period, it's a losing strategy anyway. At best it buys time for blink cooldown. Warriors still do poison, ice, and ethereal damage in addition to their weapon proc. Physical classes still do not do predominately physical damage. Mino spirit shield is definitely not insignificant for a mage, but it's not near enough to make up for the low/unreliable damage output. Versus somebody with the mino shield up a warrior's procs/spirits are worth a lot more than a mage's -60 debuff, which can't, or shouldn't be applied reliably if the victim is playing reasonably. The only exception to this, is if you're mobbing him and CCing with like 4 people, in which case more reliable moving damage would be superior to a debuff that takes 3 seconds of freecasting/not moving to set up.

    still nowhere close to the 40 damage a mage with capped CSI and decent ping can deal with a triple Shock Phase in less than 1 second against a target with capped Shock Resistance.

    I actually thought shock phase spam did 53 dps. Is the shock phase animation .33 sec? Regardless, I more mean conjuration mage, which definitely cannot fit invocation in their build. Regardless, you've given an example of a build(invocation) that does shock damage, fire damage, frost damage, and sortofkindanotreally crush/poison damage. By comparison, conjuration’s raw damage is poison, and sortofbutnotreally frost/slash. It has much longer cast times, so it's much more prone to being interrupted, its spells cost slightly less mana (13.2/sec for green ooze, vs 8/.25 sec for shock phase).

    Consider how easy it is to counter build(55 spiritualism, which is in nearly every build anyway, and maybe 110 total resists). Is it that you intend conjuration to be purely a support build? I'd agree that there's some use for it in very large fights, but that's never related to damage, as just having another warrior would produce better, more reliable DPS. I don't know when the point having walls is more useful vs. decent players, but I've to assume it's at least the point when 10 people are involved. That doesn't happen often enough to justify the 2 minute addition response time of moving gear over. Green ooze spam hits for 15.4 DPS, and fatal poison with 100% uptime does 7.5 DPS. Poison doesn't even stack, and most melee/archers could fit violent in their build, while a conjuration mage couldn't fit both mino spirit and enough poison to get consistent fatals in their build.

    The debuffs are not worth having significantly less types of damage outputs, and a DPS that is less than half other classes, harder to set up than other classes, and still fairly mana intensive. Again, I will concede that there is a potential I'm wrong, but it seems self-evident they're at least worthless in 1v1s/small scale fights. Apologies, I've repeated the same points several time, and if I were a better writer this would've been a lot more condensed s;



  • Don't apologize Hoyla. It takes a Herculean effort to convince the devs of anything.



  • its a common error on PVP players to try to "balance" (nerf the others, empower themselves) to early, PVP changes takes months to be fully undestanded, and players design new tactics and craft new builds based on the new rules after a lot of trying (dying), so let the patch on place and stop trying to change things, im sure holya at the end will found another way to kill with 1 hit or 2.

    olso i found PVP on the high tear (fully trained and fully quiped) not viable for undestanding what is really pvp, making PVP of the low/medium tear enjoyable/afordable is the key for gaming success, an i guess we all want this game to be played by 1000s of players instead of 10 Holyas Pking themselves day by day.

    I really belive that 3 players on low tear should be enough to kill one skilled/quiped player or at least make enough damage to let him back off, this reminds me that in some of my old lives a game designed a pvp mechanic very interesting that i will mention in my sugestion post

    this mechanic involves the incapacity of avoiding low tear damage even if is low tear if the damage is to frecuent.



  • @Holya well, I've already stated that we're considering changing the Minotaur shield in the next patch, so if that is your main concern, you should really feel relieved. If we change it, it will be done to make it an anti-warrior tool only, given that the Conjuration mage has already been nerfed enough by the change to Blink and to the Oozes.

    @jymnils I've heard some players claim that 3 mid-tier players are actually able to kill a very well equipped player, and I believe that's true. Low-tier as in real newcomers it's obviously impossible, but mid-tier it should be. The issue lies in the fact the very well equipped player typically also knows the game much better than the mid-tier players, and that's the way he's going to win, not because his equipment gives him an out-of-reach advantage.



  • 3 mid tier players can kill full arti vet easly if they root and slow him and if they know what they are doing.



  • @Gorstak said in Mage is incredibly underpowered, and my spaghetti is upsetti over the tournament vol. 13:

    3 mid tier players can kill full arti vet easly if they root and slow him and if they know what they are doing.

    if they know what are they doing they are not mid tier ;D, they have a top tier main, well i guess this could be all night considering what each of us consider "mid tier" for me mid tear is an all green guy whit skilsl on 50 to 70, and maybe some upgraded cloth armor



  • @jymnils anybody playing for at least a week should have most skills at 100. Nobody without maxed skills is able to compete in pvp, and shouldn't be able to, its just how the accuracy and dmg formulas work.
    50-70 skills is not mid tier. Mid tier is max skills with zero to little good gear.



  • @Myhal said in Mage is incredibly underpowered, and my spaghetti is upsetti over the tournament vol. 13:

    hould have most skills

    see what i mean, thats why we will never find a solution to the PVP balance, when skills and quip are maxed strange things hapends to the formulas ;D, and of course that kind of pvp should be taken to a duel arena not the Open pvp world ;D, but hell, who am i to decide what is fair or not ;D

    but the Game should and will atract more players if such hard core pvp stays on the arena ;D and not open world ;D



  • Mino-shield being irrelevant to a mage's damage would leave them in a position to maybe kill people if they screw up badly enough, but requiring stacking oozes to do significant damage still leaves damage a lot more avoidable than before. It was already very avoidable.

    I still believe warriors would be overpowered, but that change would be big enough for me to be sortaokay with balancing. Thanks @Prometheus

    Still prolly gonna complain a lot tho


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