Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.



  • Its pathetic how Marksman has been nerfed or atleast every crossbow on the game.

    1v1 In what plannet a Marksman cant kill a invoker? xD

    Holya did tried Mechanized, Charged Crossbow, Phoenix and Acid caster Crossbow and he didnt got a kill 1v1. we fighted for more of 10min. I dont want to imagine when invoker/Fist come out.

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  • now leave all your Artifacts and try again, high end pvp is only a fraction of global pvp



  • gg no re
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    It's still accurate that marksman has no 1v1 potential anymore, the only classes that do are mages. Archer still performs well when supported.



  • @jymnils btw my mage its just using 3 artifacts, rest are green cloths.



  • @Holya HAHAHAHA ok keep lying and you know your marksman sucks even more now xD

    I dont even care about your false picks. everyone already knows whos the King here, and i gift the the win on tournament i dont care anymore about that, nothing to proof here, i already did as the best. =)


  • FOUNDER: PRINCE

    @DarkMiraxus you are a coward frankly. I entered the tourney on a shit invo build knowing full well I'd get shit on in a small arena and you are fleeing because your imba build was nerfed... Just another NWO coward.

    On a side note you just said you were done farming... How come you were killed farming :/



  • @Clavicus Ok xD but holya said invoker counters->archer, so 2v1 invoker+archer vs Archer and i won? xD organize the ideas plz. Also im throwing tournament because there is a favoritism of GM and VAN, honestrly mechanized/ignore armor wasnt op, no one even uses it, i was the only one using mechanized crossbow thats why it took me around 5 months to farm and build the perfect build for Mechanized crossbow. but now not only ignore armor its nerfed, Also GM did removed ignore armor from Mechanized even when the weapon has 11-16 base damage, 3 battle tactis being artifact and only 1 good tactic. So ill just Gift the tounrament Win to Holya i know its his dream win it. So i dont care anymore about pvp and grind in this game, now its my second game there are alot betters and balanced pvp games to enjoy. =)


  • FOUNDER: PRINCE

    @DarkMiraxus Holya said mages. Theres alteration... invocation... conjuration... he also said "Mage is tier one again, purely because of mechanics " These are post 9.1 statements not pre... Stop with your #propaganda. Also I have my own opinions. I dont need to reference someone elses.. maybe you should form your own opinions... patch 9.1 did not improve invocation... it improved alteration spells... The difference between +25 invo boc and the griffon grip staff for enhanced frost blast is basically nothing assuming the guy w griffon does not also have some + invo gear. You crying like a baby because your imba weapon was nerfed is lame. You are scared to lose to him in front of everyone now that gear wise its a more even playing field. Part of the point of this tournament was for the devs to see some pvp in action and see what is/isnt viable in person instead of "hey archer imba" or "hey sword mage op" or "omgawd mauler sooo good"

    inb4 darkmiraxus said he will not read my post because i typed too much or im dumb or he doenst care about me or he has x piece of loot



  • Invoker counters archer is 9.1
    Archer counters invoker is 9.0

    Your gear wasn't perfect, you were using the wrong helm, legs, top, ring, necklace, boots and arguably gloves.

    Nigga, as soon as the change to proc damage, physical damage, and armor were introduced, every single archer in my guild farmed the shit out of Pstones for one. it was obviously overpowered.

    110 agi, 150 str, +100 damage%, 0 impairement, 100 BT, mech bow using ignore armor in patch 9.0
    Attack speed = (40 / 100) * (1 + 110 / 200 + 20 / 100 - 0 / 200) = 0.7
    Min damage = 11 * 3.1 = 34.1
    Max damage = 16 * 3.1 = 49.6
    DPS(physical) = 34.1+49.6/2 * 0.7 = 29.3
    DPS(Magical) = I haven't actually tested procs after the nerf, I think spirit weapon should be doing ~5 DPS with this speed
    Total DPS vs. capped reists = 29.3 + ~5 = ~34.3

    110 agi, 150 str, +100 damage%, 0 impairement, 100 BT, mech bow using weak link in patch 9.0
    Attack speed = (27 / 100) * (1 + 110 / 200 + 0 / 100 - 0 / 200) = 0.4185
    Min damage = 17 * 3.1 = 52.7
    Max damage = 22 * 3.1 = 68.2
    DPS(physical) = 52.7+68.2/2 * 0.4185 = 25.3
    DPS(magical) = I haven't actually tested procs after the nerf, I think spirit weapon+enflame should be doing ~4 dps combined with this speed
    Total DPS vs. capped reists = 25.3 * .3 + ~4 =11.59
    Total DPS vs. ~50 physical, 70 magical = 25.3*.5 + ~4 = 16.65

    @DarkMiraxus said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    honestrly mechanized/ignore armor wasnt op

    So mech bow didmore than triple the DPS of the next best bow, with a tactic that cost nearly half the stamina. The inferno bow user would've needed to keep enflamed up which costs 25-35% of a stam bar, and in general, has worse secondary stats(life leech 100% vs. 15 main stat? lol). Oh, and an extra tile of range. Plus the timing on the speed was super good, so you could get 5 shots off in a CC chain, instead of the inferno bow's 2. So avg 102.9 damage versus an inferno bow's 23.18.

    The thing is, ignore armor was ever worse on severers. They could get like 70+ dps out of ignore armor. The funny thing is this didn't seem OP when you used it. If you look at the tourny fight between you and I, I was doing legit 1/3rd of your damage per hit, and I still got you lower than you got me. You even had poisoning, which was wayyyyyy better 1v1 than psi regen.

    You didn't even do the math and realize mech bow was insane, you were using it 6 months ago when it was utter garbage. You lucked into an overpowered item, and you used it so poorly that you were about on par with a single decent player in 1v1, and utter trash in team fights. Anybody who isn't garbage with a mech bow should've been doing the DPS of 3 people. I got to faff about with a mech bow for like 12 hours before the nerf, and I fucking stomped every single person I saw. Solo I was killing groups of geared players. It was fucking OP as shit.

    Sad thing is, you played so poorly in every 1v1 we've ever had, that if I had like .5 your damage I know I would've won every single one easily, instead of you always escaping. Even with your pressuring me so hard from just randomly doing x3-7 my damage per hit. I was looking forward to us both doing stupid damage, and me just stomping you and spamming laugh over your corpse like I did to your mage the moment we had a fight anywhere close to fair. I assume you're going to go mage now, and play it purely for its ability to escape? ^ Mage>Archer btw lol

    Edit: oops, I put 150 agi in the formula, I meant it to be 110. Fixed.



  • @DarkMiraxus @Holya @Clavicus

    I'm going to tell something that is probably going to surprise all of you, from what I could read above. When we nerfed Ignore Armor, we were not thinking about the Mechanized Crossbow. Like, not at all, since Ignore Armor is a BT used on Severing weapons mostly. We weren't even aware so many people thought the MC was too powerful or were using it, since no discussion was ever opened about it! We nerfed it because Ignore Armor because it completely killed the purpose of dressing heavy armor (a full steel plate set gives resistances above 100%). It also completely killed the role of debuffs in group PvP - why having a partner casting a Murky Ooze on a target if you can just spam Ignore Armor by yourself?

    The fact we have replaced Ignore Armor on the MC with the new Weak Link was actually meant to be a buff to the weapon, since the MC has a low base damage and the new Ignore Armor would be pretty useless on it. We thought the new Weak Link would be better since it's based on adding stacks and a fast weapon like the MC makes it easier to do that.

    Last but not least, @DarkMiraxus, how would this change help @Holya win the tournament? Your characters are both archers, and I'm quite sure you both have access to all the artifacts and items you need to tweak your build.



  • @Prometheus
    I kinda assumed you added weak link for PVE. Absolutely nobody, except perhaps in the arena will let an archer stack it to a noteworthy amount. Perhaps teams of melee stacking cripples can, but there are likely other tactics that could be more effective if they've that kind of uptime. Mech bow is indeed very situationally useful now, but this was a massive nerf to that bow, and by extension archer in general. Likewise, the charge to Weak Link was a sort of nerf to archer, as it was our best tool for killing under geared players. A random nab in full steel heavy armor should easily survive an artifact laden archer using any bow at the moment.

    Mech Crossbow was indeed the best by a significant margin for archers, at least when unsupported, but the complaints I gave were mainly directed at disarm/severing. It was incredibly stupid as a severer, and only medium stupid as an archer.

    That said, I very much dislike the composition based direction Linkrealms is going. Most fights only consist of a few people, or are outright ganks. Forcing a team to coordinate, and pick builds that synergize almost seems unreasonable in a Linkrealms style setting. It will certainly alienate a portion of the current PVP community, which is fine, I suppose. The question is more will players who enjoy competitive team based PVP seek out Linkrealms as an outlet? To be honest I think no.

    I say this very much against my own self-interest, because I know that my team is completely willing to play whatever's most powerful, and will be online/ready to port anywhere at nearly any time. However, it's my opinion the difference in power between a big/good/bad/small team too great, without even factoring in solo players.

    I still believe certain builds can function to a high degree without support at the moment, but it doesn't seem like you intend this. It's getting to the point where I'd tell a friend who enjoys exclusively solo play not to try Linkrealms. Linkrealms is also not set up well to support teams; the only PVE related activity that isn't less effective in terms of man hours spent is Lizzgoths. If teams can't farm together, then roaming teams will simply gank individual members as they're farming, then move on. If people are forced to farm in groups, they're effective wasting their time, and most people know it. It feels bad to know you're wasting your time simply because you fear an enemy team.

    There's nowhere to practice outside of actual PVP, and that's both rare to come by, and going to be discouraging for the new guy trying to learn, if it's a team based thing where mistakes are very, very punishing. Look at Vorgoth, legitimately not trying to talk shit, but whenever Myhal and I 2v2 him, he fucks up and dies almost immediately, and it's clear he doesn't learn from his mistakes. He makes the same mistakes every single time, then goes back to farming Pstones to get ahead via gear. Yet, he's able to sortofbutnotreally 1v1, because it's both easy, and predominately gear based, and has a very wide margin for error. This is 95% of your current audience. Most players will be either unwilling, or unable to transition into guild/team based combat. Even if they do, it will likely end up being centered around a single, large, completely dominent guild.

    Hm. Regionals are gonna be fun :D



  • @Holya said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    Likewise, the charge to Weak Link was a sort of nerf to archer, as it was our best tool for killing under geared players. A random nab in full steel heavy armor should easily survive an artifact laden archer using any bow at the moment.

    That's exactly the reason why Weak Link was changed. It was devastating against new players, and it killed the purpose of heavy armor as much as Ignore Armor did. It should not be possible for a warrior (besides a hybrid mage) to kill a player wearing a full steel plate or similar items.

    @Holya said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    Mech Crossbow was indeed the best by a significant margin for archers

    We were not aware of it, and also not aware that the new Weak Link has turned out not to be powerful enough. We'll spice it up in the next patch.

    @Holya said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    I still believe certain builds can function to a high degree without support at the moment, but it doesn't seem like you intend this.

    It is intended. Several builds should work fine without support, no build should be able to dominate VS all other builds, and there should be a counter-build for all builds. This is what we are aiming at, not something like "no one can do anything alone". You're overreaching here.

    @Holya said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    the only PVE related activity that isn't less effective in terms of man hours spent is Lizzgoths

    We are aware and this is something we absolutely want to fix. It should be better for 2+ people to run the same dungeon rather than split and run one dungeon each.

    @Holya said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    There's nowhere to practice outside of actual PVP

    We need to add duel arenas and such, absolutely.



  • @Prometheus so everthing what holya sad is automticly what is right and correct and what all community wants,maybi this conspiracy isnt yust a rumor.



  • @Gorstak ikr im not the only one who thinks it.



  • @Gorstak said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    @Prometheus so everthing what holya sad is automticly what is right and correct and what all community wants,maybi this conspiracy isnt yust a rumor.

    If you disagree with anything of the above and think that:

    • Weak Link was bad against new players before.
    • The "new" Weak Link is powerful enough and should stay as it is.
    • It should always be better for 3 players to run 3 different dungeon rather than all the 3 of them running the same.
    • There should be no duel arenas for practicing.

    Please say so, we can discuss it.

    Players like @Holya, @Meziljin, @jymnils, @Siltoruz (just to name a few, they are absolutely not the only ones) leave plenty of feedback posts every week, and also send a lot of feedback via private messages to me every week.

    If you have useful advice on PvP/PvE balancing to give us, just say so, explain what you'd like to see changed and why. You will be heard like everyone is. Otherwise, if you have nothing to say on this topic, please abstain from throwing accusations.

    Sorry for the strong words, but, as posted in another thread, I'm really starting to get tired of reading posts about us "favoring" this or this other guild with balancing patches, when every player can build any character, and everyone can see that we have implemented balancing changes following the feedback of EVERY player/guild in the game who posted something relevant.



  • @Prometheus said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    It should always be better for 3 players to run 3 different dungeon rather than all the 3 of them running the same

    its hard to have many kids, you cant give all of them what they want ;D

    as for the quote. it really cuts the idea of what is a MMO and whats the diference with the Single Player(SP) game, whats the point of having a MMO if we all play single because we dont want to share the rewards ;D

    dungeons need to be rechable until same part by only 1 player but to finish them alones its not advisable



  • @jymnils said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    @Prometheus said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    It should always be better for 3 players to run 3 different dungeon rather than all the 3 of them running the same

    its hard to have many kids, you cant give all of them what they want ;D

    as for the quote. it really cuts the idea of what is a MMO and whats the diference with the Single Player(SP) game, whats the point of having a MMO if we all play single because we dont want to share the rewards ;D

    dungeons need to be rechable until same part by only 1 player but to finish them alones its not advisable

    Tell me why would 10 ppl go do dungeon and then get 1 artifact from boss and have to give it yust to one of them and other 9 get nothing,why would eny group do such thing ?



  • @Gorstak said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    Tell me why would 10 ppl go do dungeon and then get 1 artifact from boss and have to give it yust to one of them and other 9 get nothing,why would eny group do such thing ?

    1. you already haver and you helping new recruits
    2. the boss drops more than 10 diferent items between rare, artifacts, pvp/pve, cosumables, crafable artifacts parts, deco and even body pieces as trophy (why a boos with 10000 hp should be holding normal weapons and shitty gear)
    3. there are ways to ensure that rewards get loot biguer in quantities and quality if more players participate, so on that way a single player can get his loot, but 10 raid man will olso do.

    a boss kill must atract not only PVP PVE players olso need to atract craftsman and traders, the system need to ensure that the boss loot is autodistributed between players that helped, then they can trade between them (for looting ninjas)

    do i need more reasons? currently boss loot is been bad managed in LR.



  • @Prometheus

    1. Archer balance in general

    I feel like a lot of people would interpret what I'm about to say as archer being bad; it's not bad. It's probably the fourth best class, but it's still tier 2. I would be happy to have an additional archer on my team.

    Weak Link's overhaul made it absolute garbage 1v1. It's far too easy/cheap to counter gear, and the same goes for severers/maulers, but to a slightly lesser extent. It has absolutely no 1v1 potential, even versus players in very, very cheap gear.

    Most large group fights are centered around 2-3 "good" players, and like 5 newish/trash players. The ability to quickly and decisively destroy these new players, reset, and reengage is very important. For a long time we had a team slot, Myhal's, dedicated to destroying undergeared players, even though it meant he was garbage versus gear. It's not a huge deal that archers have absolutely no possibility of doing this in team fights anymore, but it's just another card they don't bring to the table.

    Archer has exactly one advantage, range. Range as an advantage translates into exactly the ability to switch targets quickly, and being slightly less weak to crystalline wall. Being less weak to crystalline wall doesn't matter if you have warriors on your team, as your team as a whole is still weak to it if you aren't, it just means archer won't be the kill target. You definitely want warriors on your team.

    Compare that one positive attribute an archer brings to crush armor, murky ooze, fatal poison, crystalline wall, stone fury, disarm, stun, magical interrupts, raise gravity, buffs, debuffs and lethal strike. Even though archer lacks support abilities to peel, create kill pressure, increase teammates damage, or reduce the enemy's damage, it's still good. If your team already has all of those other things, at least. It doesn't even do the best damage when supported, which I feel it should due to the tanky/peely nature of severing/mauling, and the fact that it contributes no support of its own to a team, making it comparatively less desirable to warriors.

    Again, I don't think archer is bad, if you already have a warrior/mage on your team the difference between adding a second warrior, or adding an archer isn't astronomical. That said, assuming good ping, I'd prefer the warrior. Again, I don't want this to be misinterpreted, archer is not awful, it is bad compared to warriors/mages, but the difference is isn't insane.

    Suggestion: weak link reduces one of the target's elemental resistances by ~30%, with the resistance it affects chosen by either a) the target's lowest resistance, b) the users lowest resistance, c) The next type of magical damage they take, or d) The last type of magical damage they took. This would greatly help invocation mages find a slot in a team, and give archers the ability to actually contribute something other than mediocre DPS. If you do change weak link to do something similar to suggested, please don't give it to warriors. Warriors are so good right now, but nobody seems to realize 'cause they're actually slightly difficult to play in team fights.

    1. Tank meta

    I fucking hate the tank meta. I hate BDKs in wow. I hate the notion that somebody can be annoying as fuck, follow me around slapping me in the balls, but without any potential for either of us to kill the other.

    • Massively increased armor impairement on heavy armor
    • Armor impairement reduces spell defiance after 20% impairement as been reached
    • User's isarm/crush armor/stun/lethal etc's effectiveness is reduced by armor impairement, or just lower hit rate

    Like, I know you have a boner for heavy armor, and it fucking has its place right now. It's not even... it's even fun, or effective. It's just cost efficent and annoying as fuck. Also screw 40/40 resist jewls. /spaghetti confirmed upsetti

    1. PVE balancing

    Stuff to make grouping more viable

    • Earthquake OP(dead horse). I'd suggest just making it do trivial damage outside of the initial 2.5 redius. More fun alternatives would be it removing stoneskin, or doing full damage to the caster.
    • Martial artist has no AoE, unless we're counting chain lightning. Using chain lightning as a fister makes you a bad invocation mage. Give fisters some AoE. Myhal will 100% masturbate on camera for you if you let him roundhouse kick spam in tart
    • Reasonating blow/splinter/whirlwind should have an increased radius to complete with EQ.
    • Reasonating blow/splinter/whirlwind's damage, radius or hit chance drastically reduced by armor impairment
    • BW P1/2 faster spawn timers
    • 3+ additional non-respawning chests added behind additional gold doors in the spider dungeon. Spiders respawn much faster.
    • Specific slayers should be nerfed to max <100%

    Unrelated PVE stuff I just sorta want

    • A specific useful slayer mod added to nearly every artifact.
    • Dungeons designed in such a way as to make it obvious when you're being invaded by other players where possible. EX: blackwoods/hades. Alternatively just toss some text on spiders/gnomes "oh no! A second group of invaders has arrived, now we're double-fuckled!"
    • Slayer mods that either stack with the newly nerfed damage mods on weapons, or just increase hit chance, decrease final damage taken, etc.
    • Gnome maps made less tedius to farm

    Personally, I don't want dungeons to require grouping to be most efficient. I'd prefer it not even be equal, even if slightly less bad than it is currently. In a game that requires excessive grinding to obtain perfect, or even reasonable gear, with no other goals(assuming you're not into whoring kills and getting bitches) seems unreasonable. It would greatly reduce the amount of time I could effectively play, and I have one of the nerdiest/most active teams.

    Edit: I really feel like I didn't put enough empasis on how important team composition is here. 6 archers < 1 mage, 1 warrior, 1 archer.



  • @Holya said in Marksman its DEAD R.I.P.:

    Massively increased armor impairement on heavy armor
    Armor impairement reduces spell defiance after 20% impairement as been reached
    User's isarm/crush armor/stun/lethal etc's effectiveness is reduced by armor impairement, or just lower hit rate

    heavy armor has been nerfed yet. in addition a player in heavy armor do ~1/3 attaks compared with a player with no impairement or low impairement. in addition a player in heavy armor cannot be hybrid (so looooooow cast spd), on the other hand a player with low impairement can cast spells too (for example he can switch his weapon with a staff and quikly buff himself or go for hybrid build too)

    u can choose: +dps and -defences ore -dps and+defences.
    if u dont like tank build and prefer glasscannonbuild, other players can prefer tank build so there is no reason to privilege a dps build and scorn a tank build.


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